Can a Christian Be Demon Possessed? // Veracity Fount

Mark Ssesanga:
Hello everyone, and you’re welcome to the Tabaza Podcast: Truth for a Dark World. My name is Mark Ssesanga, and I’m your host on behalf of Veracity Fount. We would like to welcome you and our listeners on Apple Podcast and Spotify. We’re here once again to look at another topic that is quite relevant for our Christian faith and our daily living as Christians.

And with me in the studio, I have a very good friend of mine—a newlywed—he’ll be able to tell us more about that. Pastor Denis Mugume, you’re welcome.

Denis Mugume:
Thank you, Mark. It’s a joy to be here.

Mark Ssesanga:
Good to have you.

Denis Mugume:
Yes, I’m glad to be here.

Mark Ssesanga:
Could you tell us a bit about yourself? How have you been lately? And how is she?

Denis Mugume:
Denis Mugume is my name, a.k.a. Pastor D… Young D.

Mark Ssesanga:
Young D?

Denis Mugume:
Okay, so names change depending on which year you’re dealing with Young D. So if you’re with Gen Z—Young D. I’m young at heart, so… I’m Young D, yeah.

I’m married to Prudence, for a few months now, and we thank God for His faithfulness. She’s keeping well.

Mark Ssesanga:
Ah, that’s wonderful—and good to have you here. We look forward to hearing your wisdom.

Denis Mugume:
Amen.

Mark Ssesanga:
Today, we’re here on a very hot-button topic. I think this is one of the very common ones that we hear a lot in our circles—in the Christian circles—about demon possession. Can a Christian be demon-possessed?

And there are so many… you know, you hear it all the time. Almost every church you go to, they’re talking about demon possession, or they’re casting out demons. Sometimes you’re driving or waking up in the morning—or in the middle of the night—some guy is screaming: “We bind you! We…” You know? Yeah—all those things.

So, perhaps we can start with: What is demon possession?

Denis Mugume:
Well, um, demon possession, for starters, could be defined as being inhabited or indwelt by a strange spirit or an evil force—an evil, dark spirit—that’s not tangible. And so that’s the basic idea around demon possession: that someone would lose their consciousness or would not have full control of their cognitive abilities and body. They would just—you know…

And that’s what they mean by that: that someone is demon-possessed. That they may be foaming at the mouth and be very, very violent and aggressive. They have an extraordinary energy that is not normal in that sense.

Mark Ssesanga:
Yeah, yeah. And the way I’ve heard people use it is… so there’s the aspect of, yes, you have no control. Of course, many of us never see people foaming, falling around—though some people tell you, “Someone fell…” and, you know, that kind of thing.

Denis Mugume:
As we were praying—yeah—someone fell, manifested, shouted…

Mark Ssesanga:
Yeah. But many of the times that we hear about this, it’s in the sense of: “The things that I do… my sin… or there’s something about me that controls me, that I cannot say no to.”

Denis Mugume:
Uh, yeah, well, the Bible has some cases around that. If you think about, for example, the boy with an impure spirit in Mark 9:14—
“I brought to you my son who was possessed by a spirit and he was robbed of speech,” in verse 17—
“Whenever it seizes him, it throws him to the ground.”

So, there is a real demonic world out there. I think we cannot dismiss it and say, “We don’t believe in demons around here.” The Bible mentions that they exist, and so we do well to take it seriously.

C.S. Lewis’s wisdom in Screwtape Letters—the two opposite errors that the devils are pleased with: an overestimation of them, or an underestimation. And indeed, they influence us, or they can even possess somebody. So, we should not live like they’re not there. But at the same time, also, we should not live like, you know—
“I overslept last night and I couldn’t read—ah, it must be the spirit of laziness and sleeping. I bind and I break!”
Or, “I’m overly hungry these days by 9—it must be the spirit of hunger!”

I think there is the overestimation, where we tend to see the devil in everything—or mixed with superstition. Have you seen that?
“When I was coming to work, I saw a black cat. It passed my road—I must go back and remove every evil spirit.”
Or when there’s an owl that lands somewhere on your roof and begins to hoot—that’s not… it.

I think it’s a mix. Again, I think it also comes because we are Africans, and we are very aware of the superstition and the beliefs that we’ve been taught since we were kids—about owls, about black cats, about things that are in creation but are ascribed to evil forces and demons.

Mark Ssesanga:

You know, the interesting thing is: when you go to the West, you’ll find someone has an owl—or a black cat—as a pet.

Denis Mugume:
  Yes!

Mark Ssesanga:

And so you wonder,

Denis Mugume:
Yes! “Wait, has this person been overtaken by…?”

Mark Ssesanga:

A snake! it’s deception, as we’ve attached quite a lot of things to…

Denis Mugume:

So, it’s a mixture of animism, superstition, and something of ATR—the African Traditional Religion—and then we have those same categories. And then we come with them to the Bible, and we now overly emphasize that bit over the other practical life.

Mark Ssesanga:
Yes. Over “What does the Bible say?” So, how does demon possession then differ from, say, demon oppression?

Denis Mugume:
So, when you talk about demon possession, I think about that example I gave you in Mark 9. And maybe also the other one in… I would think—let’s see—in the Scriptures…

Let’s see, Acts 16. Now, Acts 16 will show you a lady who is possessed by a spirit of divination. But she’s not manifesting and throwing arms around. And she’s able to see Paul and the apostles.

Mark Ssesanga: 

And the interesting thing about that story is: she was saying something that was right!
“These men have been sent by God to show us…”

Denis Mugume:
Yes. And it had some level of predictability, because how else were her bosses making money off of her in Acts 16?

So, I think that is possession—where somebody is overtaken by a demonic force, or a satanic force, or dark, evil energy.

However, oppression, on the other hand, I would think about Job, in terms of the first conversation that the devil had with God. And God, of course, in that story, gives the devil permission to touch Job’s life—but not… I mean, not kill him.

So, next part of the story: we are being told his sons are dying, his cattle is taken, the raiders do things, and then weather destroys… So it looks like—

Mark Ssesanga:

Actually, he also gets boils and everything and goes into some…

Denis Mugume:

and then, of course, the woman dies.

So that tells me that there’s something else. Oppression would be a form of suffering that can rightly be attributed to the work of the devil as an active agent.

Mark Ssesanga:
Yes, okay. So, biblically then—we’ve seen some of these people. You’ve given the example of the child in Mark chapter 9, then oppression in Job, and there are many stories where, of course, Jesus casts out demons. Matthew 15 as well?

Denis Mugume:
Matthew 15 as well? Yes, Matthew 15, the woman who was bent over.

Mark Ssesanga:
Yeah, exactly. So biblically, who, then, could be demon-possessed? Are these—can I call those people, say, Christians? Were they Christians? Were they not Christians?

Denis Mugume:
That’s the difficulty, isn’t it?

One issue springs from how ambiguous we have become lately with the word Christian. Thankfully, we have a podcast—that one of our…

Mark Ssesanga:
Yes! Who is a Christian? The very first episode, by the way. So you can check it out.
That very first episode—Who Is a Christian? or What Is a Christian?—with Joshua. It was a very, very good one.

Denis Mugume:

So, the idea here is that people label themselves Christians, or they are called Christians. In fact, we just had a census where many people—84%—ticked that they are Christians.

But in the Bible, to be a Christian… I think it’s Acts 11:26 where the disciples of Christ were first called Christians—at Antioch. So for you to be a Christian, you had to be a disciple of Christ.

And then Christ himself in John 14 defines that: “You are really my disciples if you obey my teaching.”

So to be a Christian has a lot to do with that—and not just throwing on a label.

So when people who have a label of being a Christian come to our churches and participate in our fellowships, and then maybe at some point in prayer they begin to manifest demons, we say, “Christians can be possessed also.”

But just take a step back and ask: is this person really following Christ? Has he been converted? Has he come under the submission of the Word of God?

That’s one.

Two: I think everybody who is possessed is automatically oppressed by the devil. But not everybody who is oppressed by the devil is possessed.

Mark Ssesanga:
Mhm.

Denis Mugume:
So that is where the nuance is—that it’s possible indeed for the devil to afflict your finances. I mean, what he did for Job—your health.

In the Bible, we have cases of people whose sicknesses were because of demonic work. And indeed, when Christ brought out demons, some were deaf, some were dumb—they began to talk, they began to…

So I think… but for believers, in the Bible we see that it was the believers—or the Christians—who were driving out demons, as early as Luke 10. If you look at Luke 10, Christ sends out the 72, and they come back excited, saying,
“Lord, even the demons…”

This is even before the book of Acts, where the Holy Spirit is given officially.

So that gets me to wonder: if in the Bible it was the Christians who were driving out demons, how come today it’s the other way around—that we need people to drive out demons out of us?

Mark Ssesanga:
Yeah!

Denis Mugume:
That is the irony. And of course, there’s a lot of lack of discipleship that you can tie to that. People are not discipled in who Christ is, in the ways of Christ. They are not taught good theology in terms of who the devil is and how he operates.

Mark Sseanga:

In fact, I’d even go beyond—to even understand who God is, and how He’s sovereign, and how He providentially works in His creation. That is also lacking.

Denis Mugume:

So, there’s a lack of nuance, basically. We tend to attribute every problem to the devil.

So again, C.S. Lewis—and someone like Thomas Watson—in The Cure for Melancholy, he has four ways of discussing melancholy or depression.

He says:

1. It can be a physical cause—that you’re not exercising, you’re not eating well, you’re not sleeping well—so you have that depression going on.
2. It could be a psychological cause—that some of our temperaments are more prone to depression or these things. And therefore, you need a committee around you to give you some affirmation, and give you a sense of belonging.
3. It could be a moral cause—that you’re being depressed because you are not forgiving, you’re not taking seriously the commands of God to forgive or to obey the Lord.
4. Or, it could be the devil.

But many times, depending on where you are… So in Africa, we rush straight for the demonic. Everything bad is—

Mark Ssesanga:
Everything bad is—

Denis Mugume:
Yes. So it’s overnight deliverance services. Everything bad is the devil.

Then, in the West, they rush quickly for pills. You know—everything is a pill. You’re depressed? Take a pill.

So I think there has to be a more nuanced understanding of what this looks like, and not be too quick to conclude, “My predicament is because of the devil.”

Because even the story of Job—even Job himself never heard about the devil. God did not show up and say, “You’re suffering like this because the devil asked permission.” He just came and gave him good theology—a right way to think about… yeah, to think about suffering.

Mark Ssesanga:
Yeah. Okay, that’s quite interesting.

And another thing that you see is: generally, when we don’t have a theology of God disciplining His children—like what Hebrews 12 says—so for us, when bad things happen, it can’t be that God is disciplining me.
No!
I’m good—so it must be Satan who is trying to beat me as well.

Denis Mugume:
Yeah. So it’s a mixture of witchcraft and…

Mark Ssesanga:
So then… where is God in all this? I mean, especially with regard to, say, demon oppression like Job. Where was God in all this? Because when bad things happen, God can’t be involved. It must be Satan.

So, when there’s demon oppression—or even demon possession—God can’t be involved?

Denis Mugume:
Well, I would go back to our African traditional way of thinking—that we only dealt with God in terms of our needs. Our African understanding of God was: God as the one who solves our problems.

So, my wife can’t give birth, or the land is not yielding crops—so I carry a sacrifice, go to the medicine man, he does what he’s doing, gives me a charm, I take it back and put it in my land or give my wife to drink—and then she’ll have a child.

And God was not the fatherly type—where we can now have a relationship with Him and talk and do that.

So we brought some of that into the church as well, when we got born again. And so people tend to think of God only in terms of His provision, deliverance…

The attribute of God that is heavily forgotten in our language—in Africa, or in Uganda in particular—is language about God’s sovereignty.

And there—I mean, Job—that God can ordain for evil to be, so that He can work out His greater purposes in your life.

And even Christ Himself wasn’t spared.

Denis Mugume:
There’s a verse I find disturbing—or that disturbs most of our African understanding. Again, I keep on saying African, but it can be all over. But here, where we stay—

Mark Ssesanga:

Especially with African Traditional Religion

Denis Mugume:

Matthew 4:1: “And Jesus was led by the Spirit of God into the wilderness to be tempted.”

There are three players in there: there’s Jesus, there’s the Holy Spirit, and there’s the devil.

And yet—that’s something of God’s sovereignty. In that He can ordain…

Of course, we have to be careful around this. We are not saying that—James is very clear in James 1: “Let no man say, ‘I am being tempted by God…’”

Mark Ssesanga:
Yes, uh-huh. “Let no man say, ‘I am being tempted by God…’”

Denis Mugume:
So that’s what—we have to be careful not to say that. But what we are saying is that God is not evil in ordaining for evil to be in our lives.

And God can, out of evil, harness it for His greater purposes that we may not be able to see in the moment of going through what we are going through.

And also, just to be careful—to mark out those things. That’s why I think it’s important to belong to a community, so that you have more than just one approach for your predicament.

Because in some societies, it’s just: “Whatever you’re going through, prayer is the key!” Just—just pray. There’s no mention of visiting a psychologist or a counsellor, no mention of trying to get it diagnosed. It’s just:
“Come to our overnight prayer, and we’ll break that chain!”

That verse in Isaiah: “The anointing will break the bondage…”—we have to be careful with that.

So, I would say that it’s a mixed bag of all of that that we are going through today. And the Bible is a bit more nuanced in talking about these issues than we want to be in our churches.

Mark Ssesanga:
Okay. So, Denis—earlier on, you spoke about Christians—this term, and how we use it today. What it meant earlier on in the Bible, in Antioch, where believers were first called Christians. And how today everyone is a Christian, right?

So how do you make—what distinguishes a Christian?

Of course, we do have, I guess, the holy living, and, you know, being obedient to Christ… but isn’t there something deeper than that?

Denis Mugume:
Well, my mind goes to 1 Corinthians 12:
“No man can say, ‘Christ is Lord,’ unless by the Holy Spirit.”

So in that sense, even in our salvation process—at the moment of regeneration—we are born again, born of the Spirit of God. And in that sense, at that point of our conversion, of our turning to Christ in faith, we can say someone has been indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

That’s my first passage I would think about.

I also think about the fact that those who have been born by the Spirit have different affections and desires. There is a desire to be obedient to Scripture, a desire to do what Christ did, a desire to love Jesus more than you loved Him before.

And of course, that will show up in different ways—either in service, or in… like, there are what the Bible calls fruit.

“You will know them by their fruit,” in Matthew 7.

And also the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5—love, joy, peace, kindness—and the list goes on.

So without the fruit, we cannot think that someone is being indwelt by the Spirit—which means we cannot say they are a Christian.

I think that’s even why it’s important to belong to a healthy, gospel-centered local church. Because the church will either affirm or say, “No, that is not it.”

In other words, when you come up with… because again, the call of Christ is personal, but it is lived out in community. And so you can’t have your own faith in the background and say, “I believe in Christ, you know, secretly, and I will not belong to any church.”

That’s why the church is important.

With that said, however, I’m not saying that the church is the one that gives you salvation. I’m saying the church affirms your salvation. Um, yes—back to your question.

Mark Ssesanga:
So, you’re saying—in the sense that, for those who believe, if I may, if I understand you correctly—they are already indwelt by the Holy Spirit?

Denis Mugume:
Yeah. There’s also another passage that comes up—it’s the one where Jesus makes a promise somewhere in John… I’m forgetting the chapter, but He said that when the Holy Spirit comes, He will be with you and also be in you.

Mark Ssesanga:
In you, yes. With you and in you.

Denis Mugume:
I think it’s—I’m not sure—it’s John 14 or 16, one of those, somewhere there. I’m not particular about it, but that’s the idea—that the Lord Himself dwells within us.

It’s a personal, intimate walk with Him—that we know Him.

That’s what Paul says somewhere—I think in Romans as well—that we have received the Spirit, and by Him we cry out, “Abba! Abba, Father!”

So, someone who cries out “Abba”—it would be hard to make a case for them being possessed by a demon.
Which part would the demon go to? Does the demon end up in one room of the heart?

Denis Mugume:
So, it is not—it’s not a coherent thing to say biblically that a Christian can be possessed by demons. It just doesn’t add up.

Otherwise, where would the devil dwell in you?

Mark Ssesanga:
So what you’re saying is: once someone is indwelt by the Spirit—

Denis Mugume:
Yes.

Mark Ssesanga:
—whatever else they had before is out.

Denis Mugume:
Yes.

Mark Ssesanga:

You cannot have the Spirit and share a room with a demon. What is this—a warehouse?

In one room you have the Holy Spirit, and in the other, you have the demon and his scronies—and he’s hitting the pans, making noise?

Denis Mugume:

[Laughs] That’s just not it.

God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. I would allude to James on that. But also…

Mark Ssesanga:

That passage—“What fellowship does Christ have with Belial?” Yes?

Denis Mugume:
Yeah. Is that 2nd Corinthians or 1st Corinthians?

Mark Ssesanga:
First or second Corinthians—I’m not sure which one it is.

Denis Mugume:

So there is that. And also, to imagine that you can have both… because I mean, I’ve read some official people who think we can have that happening. But most of them, again, are ambiguous about what it means to be a Christian.

So, you end up finding that those who are Christians in the text of Scripture were the ones who were driving out demons—were the ones who were casting out demons.

In fact, it got so good in Acts that Simon the magician thought you could get some of this power—the power the apostles showed over demons. And of course, he was cursed, and… he became blind!

But the point I’m making there is that true believers, or true Christians—the ones who are actually following Christ—are the ones who were driving out demons.

I think today’s error is that we have specialized it. We have almost… low-key Ghostbuster Ministries in international churches—where these are specialists in demon casting-out. As if to say:
“Bring all the demon-possessed here!”

Yet casting out demons was not the point of the apostles. The point was preaching the gospel. And as they went out to the mission field, we see that they engaged in places that were deeply steeped in occultism and the demonic. That was the occasion.

They didn’t have a special facility at their churches, or a special person who is an expert at deliverance.

Driving out demons was the power given to every believer in Christ over demons. You get it?

In Luke 10, I also think about Ephesians 2—
“You were dead, but now you’ve been made alive and made to sit with Christ, far above all principalities and powers.” (Ephesians 2:6)

So, the Christian has this authority—in the name of Jesus—to drive out demons.

And yet, when Christ addresses that issue in Luke 10, He says:
“Don’t rejoice that demons are subj:ect to you. Rejoice because your names are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.” (Luke 10:20)

So that—that’s the most important thing to go out for.

I think in these conversations, what is lost is that nuance—that driving out demons was not a ministry. In fact, it’s not even a gift of the Spirit, by the way.

In 1 Corinthians 12 and 14, it’s not. It is a right of every believer.

But just because we have a “specialty” or a deliverance ministry today—that’s where our issues come from.

Mark Sseanga:

So, just to go a bit deeper—how does a believer drive out demons?
Because someone might hear this and think, “Oh! Now, ‘In the name of Jesus, in the name of Jesus,’” you know—and just go around saying that.

Or one may ask, “Well, what then is the problem with deliverance ministries we have?” Because they seem to be doing that.

So how do Christians do it—drive out demons or drive out the power of darkness?

Denis Mugume:

Biblically speaking, again, Acts of the Apostles is a good read on this one. Just read that book—and you’ll see: We had gone to preach the gospel. Somebody showed up with a demon. In the name of Jesus—it was rebuked. And it went

We don’t see repetitive, “Go go, go, go, go.”
It is the confidence to know that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that He is Lord.

Now, what we have today—most of the time, that is on camera—is mostly drama.
Of course, it gives more hype, more vibe, or more status to “the man of God.” As if he’s a super… again, like the African priest who had supernatural powers over the demonic. That’s the vibe it gives.

So, I’m saying that the apostles drove out demons by invoking the name of Jesus. They rebuked. They cast out—with just one word.

You know, even when they healed the sick—at the gate called Beautiful: “Rise up and walk.”

And those signs or miracles were to attest to the gospel. They didn’t intend for them to take away from the gospel and open up deliverance ministries. They drove out demons in the name of preaching the gospel.

Mark Sseanga:

Kind of like what Hebrews 2 says:
“God confirming their message with miracles, signs, and wonders.”

Denis Mugume:

So I think that’s what it should be today as well.

I don’t see Paul writing to the church at Corinth or at Ephesus—
I mean, at Corinth there’s a guy sleeping with his father’s wife.
Paul doesn’t say, “Cast out the demon of lust.”

Mark Sseanga:

He says, “Cast out the man.”

Denis Mugume:

“Cast out the man.”

In other words, he drives the responsibility to the church—to exercise church discipline on the man. And he doesn’t pray against “a spirit of immorality overtaking the church at Corinth.”

So, as you can see—of course, there’s that interplay between how the devil uses our flesh.

In other words, he tempts us with stuff that we already want.
That’s what James says: “Each man is tempted when he is enticed by his own evil desires.” (James 1:14)

Mark Ssesanga:

And—yeah—no one ever wants to own the desires.

You say, “I have these desires.” They say,”The devil is there, the source of temptation.”

Denis Mugume:

“It’s a spirit of lust, a spirit of anger, a spirit of laziness.”

It’s never: “You know what? 

Mark Ssesanga:

“I am a sinful guy.”

Denis Mugume:

I am a sinful person.”

Yes—I can pray for God to give me the grace, but also the discipline to obey what I know is clear.

And it’s amazing how we have, uh, tied the word “spirit” to the acts of the flesh in Galatians. So the Bible says in Galatians that “the works of the flesh are obvious”—and then he names them. And the surprising thing I saw about the works of the flesh—witchcraft was among them!

Mark Ssesanga:

Yet today, we tie that to the devil—to the devil.

Denis Mugume:

But the devil does not exactly tempt us with something that’s not inside us already—
I mean, in terms of our lusts or desires that we… And that’s what flesh does.

Flesh is the natural inclination to evil—So that all the devil has to do is… is accentuate it.

You know, I think—if you’ve ever been next to a piano, those pianos that have strings inside—and you sing a note, there’s always a string that vibrates based on what you’re singing.

And that’s what the devil does. He tends to give you already what your heart wants—or tempts you to go above it and fulfill it in ways that dishonor God.

So what James says—as the cure for temptation—
If you look at what James says, James says:
“But every good and perfect gift comes from God, the Father of lights…” (James 1:17)

So what James is saying here is that:
When it comes to engaging your lusts, you have to remind yourself of that truth—
That in the right time, in the right season, God gives me the things I want, in the way He wants.

Because the devil’s work is to tempt us to fulfill a legitimate desire in ways that dishonour God.

You know—sex is good, adultery is evil.
Hunger is good, gluttony is evil.

So even how you go about fulfilling that desire can either be a temptation or a test—that you can pass.

Mark Ssesanga:

You—you hinted on—or rather, you actually spoke about—the works of the flesh, Galatians 5.

So many times, a lot of the things you’ll find—many Christians say:
“The reason for my alcoholism… the reason for their sleeping around… the reason for all these things I do is a spirit of lust, a spirit of alcoholism, a spirit of anger,” you know?
Spirit of this, spirit of that.

And so where—where, then, does their responsibility come in? As in, their own sinfulness?

Because they seem to want to attribute everything to some spirit— Basically saying, “I’m not the one doing this. This is some spirit that came – Jezebel spirit.”
Now we’ve actually come up with all these kinds of spirits:
Marine spirits, water spirits, then spirit husbands…

Denis Mugume:
Yeah, yeah. So, I would say, one: Say only as much as the Bible says—and go no further.

Because a lot of trouble comes in—not from what the Bible says, but from what we say after the Bible has said something. That’s where things begin, you know—“Spirit of succubus and incubus,” “spirit husbands,” and stuff.

And yet—yet, you want to test the logic of this thing:
You’re saying that someone had sex before they got married, and therefore they have a soul tie.

But there are unbelievers who’ve had sex before marriage and now they are happily married.
In fact, they even have twins now—as we speak!

Mark Ssesanga:

What are you still waiting for?

Denis Mugume:

So what happened to them? Still waiting for deliverance from a spirit husband?

I think our approach to some of these things is—not again—nuanced.
It’s just one thing—what we used to call when I was younger, you know, a gun that shoots only one bullet at a time. You see?

So one—it needs a bit more nuance. Someone says, “I can’t get a man because there’s a spirit around me.” You haven’t checked your attitude yet.

There are things that Paul says—for example, when he’s giving Timothy instructions about elders— He says, “Don’t give the office to a young man, lest he be overtaken by pride.”

Otherwise, it’s—it’s not that to be young is to be proud automatically, but because of your age, you are susceptible to some temptations.

So, number one, I think is lifestyle. What’s our lifestyle like? Are we actually glorifying God with our lifestyles?

Number two is what we believe about God. Because sometimes—it just feels like, “This is God and this is the devil, and they’re in a boxing ring.”

And yet, in the Bible, it is God who even allows enough rope for the devil to do what he wants—
But only to accomplish the opposite of what he intends to accomplish. Case in point? Joseph: “What you meant for evil, God meant for good.” (Genesis 50:20)

Then, when it comes to Incubus and Succubus, we need to be serious about occultism.

We have Christians—so-called Christians—who are still engaged in the occult. You are a Christian, but you still read horoscopes. You’re a Christian, but you still have Mama Fina’s picture on your phone!

I—I don’t know. Why are you doing these things? Like, what is going on here? You get what I mean? I think someone has criticized some people and said, “We are Anglicans by day and Africans by night.”

That as far as we are concerned, we have this split in our heads where we have the white man’s religion—but, “You know, we have to go deep…”

Mark Ssesanga:

It’s like you put it on—yes. And then when you get home, you take it off.

Denis Mugume:
No—you can take it off.

To be a Christian is to be fully born again— to be transformed from the inside out, to renew our minds, you see.

So I think: Good pastoral counseling, a good biblical theology, And a good understanding of the limits of the devil.

The devil is not omnipresent. He is not omniscient. He’s not all-powerful. He’s not all-knowing.

And we tend to get the attributes of God and ascribe them also to the devil. No—the devil has his limits. And the Bible told us how he works. It told us to be careful, to keep watch, to be on alert, that “Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour.” (1 Peter 5:8)

So—the devil has done his work on your flesh. He knows what turns you on. He knows when you’re most vulnerable. And it takes the wisdom of God in community for us to be kept in check, to be disciplined, to commit to a local church somewhere, to serve somewhere, to have these conversations about these things.

Even to grow in our knowledge of God. We are not the first generation of Christians that has dealt with these questions. There are people who have written books.

I have here Thomas Brooks’ Precious Remedies Against Satan’s Devices.

Mark Sessanga:
It’s a very good book for people to read.

Denis Mugume:

In that book it will show you that the devil tempts you either by:

• Overly exalting one truth of God above others—
  In other words, he will overemphasize God’s holiness, for example, to keep you in a state of guilt, where you can’t repent, where you don’t feel like you need to repent

Or:

• He will overly emphasize the love of God,
  Where you feel like: “Ah, I can do anything and go scot-free with it.”

So—it’s like, the devil’s biggest work is not possession and oppression. The devil’s biggest work is diabolos—lying.

Mark Sseanga:

It’s false religion.

Denis Mugume:
He is the father of lies.

So—the more truth of God’s Word you appropriate into your life…

In fact, Ephesians 6—that’s what the full armor of God is about. It’s not some helmet in the spiritual realm that we call upon and wear. No—it is the application of the gospel to how we think, how we live our lives practically.

So that’s how the Christian is supposed to engage with the devil, iIn terms of learning and applying and living out biblical truth in our lives every day, allowing it to seep into everything we do and say. And the father of lies will be overcome.

One more Scripture—You know that Scripture that they normally use in overnights?  Again, I’ve done some overnights before, so I know some things.

2 Corinthians 10—I believe—
“Not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, rulers…”
You know?

And then in that text it actually defines what the principalities are: “…casting down imaginations and every vain thought…” 

Mark Sseanga:

“…that exalts or tries to exalt itself against Christ.”

Denis Mugume:

Yeah. So—for us—we don’t go as far as that.
We just stay up here and begin to cast out the spirit of Incubus, Succubus, marine spirits—weird… all these things.

And yet the bigger work is around the self-talk we give ourselves just before we fall into sin—
The justification.

“I’m not an alcoholic. I’m just a social person who likes to spend time with people.”
“I’m not proud. I just know who I am and I have to stand up for myself.”
“Yes, I’m sleeping with my secretary… but I owe this to myself—I work so hard. They don’t understand.”

That self-talk that you give yourself.

Mark Ssesanga:

And then—when you feel some bit of guilt—you go and say:

“Pastor, I have a spirit of lust that needs to be cast out.”

Actually, I wanted to go to Galatians 5, just to go through that list—because a lot of the things we attach spirits to are actually listed here as works of the flesh.

Yes.

So from Galatians 5, from verse 16, it says:

“But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.
For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit,
And the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh.
For these are opposed to each other,
To keep you from doing the things you want to do.
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.”

Then he goes on to list them:

“Now the works of the flesh are evident:
Sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Idolatry, sorcery (or witchcraft, that you spoke about),
Enmity, strife, jealousy,
Fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions,
Envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these.
I warn you, as I warned you before,
That those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

These are the things where we say:

“You have a spirit of lust.”
“You have a spirit of impurity.”
“You have a spirit of anger.”
“You have a spirit of alcoholism—it needs to be cast out of you.”

And yet, the Bible here is referring to them as works of the flesh. And it says: Don’t walk in this as a Christian.

Rather—it gives them the fruit of the Spirit.

So in—and as you said—in this case, it’s within the power of a Christian to walk in the Spirit,
Because He already indwells them.

And also—I think it’s Romans 8, from verse 12—
Which speaks about another verse we often take out of context:

“As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.”

Yeah—they are sons.

And it says earlier on:

“Those who are being led—to put to death the deeds of the flesh”—which are listed here.

Yes—so again, you see that.

Denis Mugume:
Yeah. So—just to add to that: That it is within the power of the Christian to do.

Again—reading the Bible very systematically will show you that there are parts that you’re supposed to pray about—That God says, “Pray about these things.”

And then there are parts where God says: “Obey.”

Mark Ssesanga:

 “Do this. Do that.”

Denis Mugume:

Yeah—we can never have enough overnights to replace obedience.
There is still a place for obedience and for walking.

Mark Ssesanga:

“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.” (John 14:15)

Denis Mugume:

So I think what’s happening here is the lack of gospel application from the lack of the gospel itself.

That in the gospel, we see that Christ—who died for us—has given us:
John 1:12:

“As many as believed on Him, to them He gave the right to be called children of God.”

And then of course Ephesians 2:

“You’ve been raised and seated in heavenly places—above all principalities and powers.” 

So the Christian, who is equipped with the understanding of who they are in Christ, as an ambassador of light, okay— begins to walk in obedience, begins to walk in submission to His Word. And this—this is the fruit of what will come out of that.

The love of Christ enables you to be patient—because He has been patient with you.
To be kind—because He has been kind to you.

In other words: The fruit of the Spirit is a reflection of what the gospel has done to your heart, and appreciating it.

And even when it comes to things like forgiveness:

“Forgiving others—even as God in Christ forgave you.” (Ephesians 4:32)

So just to say:
There are many demons which are conquered when—
When we walk in truth and obedience.

That’s warfare.

Warfare is not necessarily about binding strongholds—It’s about living out the truth of God’s Word that you know.

Mark Ssesanga:
So, as a Christian, my affinity or addiction to alcoholism is not because I’m demon possessed, but I just need to leave it.
Either I’m not—if I’m a genuine Christian, then if you’ve come to Christ, then I have to walk in obedience.

Denis Mugume:

And those who have come to Christ belong to a local church, where they are pastored, discipled, mentored, and enabled to walk the life of Jesus.
Yeah.

So, be careful not to throw everything to the demonic, and also not to throw everything to a pill or to a medicine. I think it’s a fourfold, full nuance of what the Bible says.

Mark Sseanga:

Then lastly, we have these people who say there are moments when you’re walking in the Spirit, and then you can be out of the Spirit. In other words, “I was out,”—you’ve heard that statement, “I was not in the Spirit at that point.”

We have this idea that there are moments you can be walking by the Spirit—you’re indwelled by the Spirit—and then there are moments when you’re doing your own thing and He’s left you.
Those moments—some believe you can then be demon-possessed.

So, is there a time when a Christian is not indwelled by the Holy Spirit, that they’re left in a state where Satan can come and take hold of them and possess them, make them do certain things, then leave, and then the Holy Spirit comes back?

Denis Mugume:

No. Galatians 5 is written to Christians, and yet Paul warns them about these things.
And again, we’ve said Paul didn’t attribute them to the devil, but to their flesh.

So indeed, it’s possible for a Christian to walk in the flesh—in terms of they are not walking in obedience basically to what the Lord wants.
Yeah.

And in that sense, there’s a cure for it in 1 John 1, verses 8 and 9:

“If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and make Him to be a liar.
But if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins…

Mark Ssesanga:

“… and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

Denis Mugume:

You get it?

Now—when you claim that the Holy Spirit left you, you’re doing something very incredible.
You’re doing something they’ve never heard before in the Bible, because we have been sealed with the seal of the Holy Spirit in Ephesians 1.

Mark Ssesanga:

Ephesians 1—who is the guarantee of the promise of eternal life.
Denis Mugume:

Yeah.Do you get what I’m saying? So, did He unseal you when you’re saying something very strange to the Scriptures?

Which tells me again the gospel hasn’t been applied to our hearts. It’s more or less a concept.
It’s still in the books. It’s still on our heads, just flying over our heads. It needs to sink in.
We need to develop a Christian mind.

When Paul is discussing Christian ethics, he spends over two chapters discussing what Christ has done—what His death means to us—chapter upon chapter.
Then he comes to efficiently put off and put on.

Put off the old man, put on the new man.
Yeah.

The more we push and develop a deeper understanding and appreciate what the gospel means, we will always be confused with animism, superstition, all the stuff—strange things, humanism, New Age mysticism, gnosticism, prophecy things will become appealing because the gospel has not been preached or taught enough.
It’s been—at best—mentioned, but not explained and lived out to the last bit of it.

Mark Ssesanga:

And just to, as we conclude, there’s this parable of the strong man.

You have that parable where Jesus says—where He’s being accused of casting out demons by the power of Satan, and He speaks of when the strong man comes and binds the weaker man, and puts him out.

Then He attributes that to the work of the Holy Spirit.

And then, of course, when I look at the call:

“Go out and make disciples of all nations, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you.” (Matthew 18:20)

Would I be right in saying that the gospel, the pushing back of the darkness, and the casting out of Satan from people’s lives and from His influence in their lives—Ephesians 1:4-8— is through preaching the gospel and getting people to believe in the Son of God?

And that’s then what turns them from their sinful living and from all the demonic activity and all the three influences—the world, the flesh, and the prince of the power of the air—to obedience to the Son?

Would I be right in saying that?

Denis Mugume:

Yes. I think where we err is when we give more attention or emphasis to anything else more than to Jesus.

And whatever you give attention to more than Jesus tends to take the full attention of everybody.
You know, that’s what happens normally—when you add anything to Jesus, you lose Jesus.

So, I think the more pastors and preachers push for the knowledge of Christ—
to know Him, to love Him—

What is Paul’s deepest prayer to the Colossians?  That you may know Him.

Ephesians? That you may know Him better.

The chief branch, or the chief crux, of Paul’s prayers is for the Christians in these different places he was writing to: to know Jesus.

Not to overcome strongholds.
Not to break generational curses—I’m sure we need to come back here and deal with that.

Not the desire—even for Paul himself in Philippians—that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection.

So whatever we tend to give more attention to, again, there are two errors:
over-emphasis or under-emphasis.

Or where we overemphasize something—

For example, even in Mark’s gospel, Christ does not cast out demons to open up an enterprise of demon casting.

Mark writes particularly to show that Christ is superior over nature, superior over spiritual entities, superior over man—
it demonstrates the lordship over all creation, over all creation.

It is not to open up an enterprise that casts out demons.

So I think that’s where we tend to miss it—that we overly emphasize things the Bible did not overly emphasize.

And we miss out… You know, on the road to Emmaus, where the two disciples were opened up to the Scriptures—from the prophets, from Moses—
and He began to explain to them the things concerning Himself.

So whether we’re reading Moses or Ezekiel or Nehemiah, somehow we must end up on Jesus because everything is about Him.

And so even in our ministries, when I come to your church or your ministry, do I leave very impressed by who Christ is? Or do I leave very impressed by how much you’re able to cast out demons and how powerful you are as a man of God?

That has been a chief concern I’ve had for quite some time now.

Mark Ssesanga:
Yeah, and it’s a big, big one in the church. Thank you very much, Denis.
It’s been wonderful having you.

We look forward to hosting you for another really exciting hot topic.

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