Are Apostles and Prophets for Today? // Veracity Fount

Mark Ssesanga:
Hello, and welcome to the Tabaaza podcast, where it’s truth for a dark world. My name is Mark Ssesanga, and I’m your host today on behalf of Veracity Font. And once again, we are here to discuss another biblical topic that is relevant for our culture and for our faith today.

With me in the studio, I have a very good friend of mine who happens to support a strange team called Liverpool. I will ask him to introduce himself.

Geoffrey Mbaziira:
Strange indeed… uh, uh — for a Man United fan, yes! You know my name is Geoffrey Mbaziira. What do you want to know about me?

Mark:
Anything you’d like us to know about you.

Geoffrey:
Okay. I am — uh — I am married to Jackie Mbaziira. We have two children.

Mark:
Ah, nice! Recent father?

Geoffrey:
Yeah, yeah — recent.

Mark:
How is that going there?

Geoffrey:
It’s… uh, it’s a journey. It’s a journey. It has its struggles, challenges, but um — it’s a beautiful one. It’s a beautiful one. Our child is two— three months — she made three months yesterday.

Mark:
Still sleepless nights?

Geoffrey: 

They are reducing.

Mark:
Now you can get some sleep?

Geoffrey: 

Yeah, yeah. Well… my wife — I hope my wife hasn’t heard that. She might say otherwise. But we are sleeping.

Mark:
Ah, okay, that’s good. Glad to have you here.

And yeah — today we have a hot-button topic: Apostles and Prophets — do apostles and prophets still exist today?

So, we do hear a lot of — you know — there are so many people today who call themselves apostles and prophets. But perhaps where to start from is: prophets, especially in the Old Testament. What was their function? What was the function of the prophets in the Old Testament? We can start from there.

Geoffrey:
Ooh. Um, so in a sense, I guess if you’re looking at the nation of Israel — as the theologians would call it, a theocracy — you know, a nation that is ruled by God — there were three main key positions or offices in the governance of the people of God.

There was the king, who really oversaw the civic duties, in a way. You know, made sure that the people obeyed the laws and stuff.

Then you had the priest, who represented the people before God — you know? So he went to God on behalf of the people.

Then the prophet. The prophet sort of did the opposite of what the priest did.

Mark:
Yeah, yeah.

Geoffrey:
So he represented God to the people. He got what he hear from God and, you know, brought it to the people.
So, the priest went before God on behalf of them. The prophet went from God toward the people, bringing the oracles of God — you know, hearing from God a message and telling it to the people:, what they was expected of them, and bringing it to the people.

So then, that’s how God, in a theocracy, governed the people — using the king, the priest, and the prophet.

Mark:
And the prophet, yes.
And so, when we come to then the New Testament — you have, especially passages like Ephesians 2 and 4, which speak about apostles and prophets — how do the apostles and prophets, especially in the New Testament, relate to the prophets in the Old Testament? Were their roles similar, in a sense?

Geoffrey:
I think there was a sort of similarity. So — so if going back to the prophet — the Old Testament prophet, as I said, spoke the word of God on behalf of the people.
So his word — the statement “Thus saith the Lord” — I’m saying it in, you know, in KJV English because it sounds better.

Mark:
Sounds better, yeah.

Geoffrey:
“Thus saith the Lord” — behind it was a statement that only the prophet could say, because the words of the prophet were the very words of God. They were authoritative in nature. You know, if the prophet spoke, God had spoken.
Those were the very words of God.

So the prophet carried an authority that no other person within Israel did — not even the king, not even the priest. So in fact, within those three offices, one might say that the king was the one that was highest, but that wasn’t the case. The prophet was actually the one that the other two also, you know — um — they were responsible to.

So, coming to the New Testament, you get the sense that that sort of authority is not there. The prophetic office in the New Testament — with that sort of authority — is not there. It seems to be blessed by the apostolic authority, so that the very words of the apostles became the very word of God.

You know, when the Bible was being put together, one of the key things that they used to determine what should be included and what should not be included was whether the book was written by an apostle, or by someone who was a close associate — very close — to the apostle.

It didn’t matter how good the book was or how rich it was — it wasn’t being considered as authoritative and without error unless it was written by an apostle. Because the apostolic office, in that regard, had the same authority as the Old Testament prophet.

So, you get the sense that the office of the apostle basically replaced — or morphed into — I think so.

Mark Ssesanga:
So, who is an apostle? Or who was an apostle? And how do you define that?

Geoffrey:
Yeah, yeah. I think — and I usually want to make a distinction between the office and the gift. So, when you’re asking, “Who is an apostle?” I’m thinking, “Who is the person who is in the office of the apostle?” Right?

When Jesus is calling his — you know — the people that are going to follow him, he chooses twelve.

Mark:
Yes.

Geoffrey:
There were so many…

Mark:
Yeah, yeah, yeah

Geoffrey:
…there were so many others that followed him. You know — and in that sense, he chose them — all of them, you know, because just like he chose us, he chose all of them. But he specially chose these twelve.

Later on, one of them would be — you know…

Mark:
Would betray him

Geoffrey:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And would be disqualified — or would disqualify himself. And they had to replace him with Matthias.

But, so, he calls them to sort of take this message of the kingdom — the gospel — in an authoritative way, as his representatives to the nations. So they provide the foundation upon which the rest of us, as other witnesses, build upon — with the gospel.

They took the gospel from Christ himself — authoritatively — to the rest of, you know, the world, the Roman Empire, then… in an authoritative way that none of us has. Because they — they walked with the Lord, you know?

For those three years, they lived with him. They saw his miracles. They saw him resurrected. And because they were with him for those three years, and they were witnesses of the resurrection — that is what specially made them apostles, different from the rest of the other followers of Christ.

So I’m not so sure I’m answering your question, but in a way, that’s what makes an apostle. That’s what made the apostolic office.

Mark:
Yeah, yeah. So, in other words, it refers to — as Mark 3 says — “He went up on a mountain, and he called those who were his,” and then out of those, he chose twelve whom he named apostles. And then it goes on to say: so that they might be with him, that he might send them out to preach, to heal, to cast out demons.

Geoffrey:
Yeah.

Mark:
Okay. And then the New Testament prophets?
Because you have that passage as well in Ephesians 2, which speaks about the foundation of the apostles and prophets.
But also you have Ephesians 4, where people say, “He gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some teachers, and shepherds.”

Geoffrey:
Yeah, I think, in a way, that’s where it gets a bit muddy. Not muddy — but, uh, a bit unclear at least.

Going back to the prophets, for example, you’ll find prophets in the New Testament. You know, a person like Agabus, for example, is called a prophet.

There were — I think they were sons of Shiva?

Mark Ssesanga:
Well, those ones were also the daughters of… is it Philip?

Geoffrey:
Yes. So, you get — you find pockets of people that they call prophets. But you don’t get the sense that they have the same authority as the Old Testament prophets had.

You get — so there’s a sort of distinction as you look at Agabus, for example, and how Paul responds to him — it’s not as authoritative as Isaiah, for example, or Jeremiah, or the other ones. But also, they don’t have the same authority as the apostles.

So, that’s why I think I would rather make a distinction — that the prophetic office was foundational, as I’ve explained, just like the apostolic office — foundational in the building of the church foundation.

You’ve mentioned Ephesians 2:20 — that’s clear. Both the prophets and the apostles are what – the church is built upon those two offices.
Jesus Christ, obviously, being the chief cornerstone. So he’s the one who establishes the church, but he lays the foundation — and the prophets and the apostles, or the Old Testament prophets and the New Testament apostles — build on that foundation as foundational stones.

Mark:
So would you say, especially in light of Ephesians 2 — where it says we are built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets, Christ himself being the cornerstone — is that referring to the teaching that came through the apostles…

Geoffrey:
Yes, I think so.

Mark:
…and the prophets, and on which the rest of the church is being built — which, in this case for us, would be Scripture?

Geoffrey:
Yes. Which would be Scripture.
So, the Old Testament — as the prophetic oracles of the prophets — the New Testament — as the apostolic oracles of the apostles — that forms the foundation of what we have as Scripture, or the canon.

Now, because you find — in the Old Testament, and even within the New Testament — there’s a sense in which you see people like Barnabas, people like James the brother of the Lord (who wasn’t one of the twelve)…

Mark:
Yes.

Geoffrey:
…Adon — I think there is Adon?
And Paul refers to them.

Mark:

There are those who are referred to as apostles of the church, and also those as apostles of…

Geoffrey:

So I think there’s a way in which you can speak of the apostolic gift, right?
That is distinct from the office. Because the office is this authoritative person that had to have been with the Lord for all those three years, you know?

And witnessed the resurrected Lord — was an eyewitness to the resurrected Lord. That office no longer exists today — at least, you get the sense from reading the New Testament that that office was special for the Twelve and Paul.

But we can think of the gift, in a sense, loosely, when you think about apostles as the sent ones. That’s what the Greek apostolos means.

Mark:
The person who is — as in — to represent?

Geoffrey:
Yeah, yeah — the person who established, for example, laid the foundation in a way that brought the gospel to Uganda — we can think of Mackay, for example, if you’re thinking Protestant, would have been operating, in my understanding, with the apostolic gifting — because he laid the foundation upon which we, as the rest of the gospel ministers here in the nation, are building upon. Right?

But when you start to refer to him as an apostle, you’re confusing — I think — you’re confusing the gift and the office.

So, in that sense, I can think of — we talk about, in the history of the Ugandan church, we talk about a person like Apolo Kivebulaya, and he has several times been called — tagged — as the “apostle to the Pygmies.”

I think that is the idea that they’re trying to communicate — that he established gospel foundations within the forest, you know, among the Pygmy people. So I think — I think — I don’t know whether I get my…

Mark:
Yes. So I wanted to bring in this aspect because, as you’ve said, again, using that term has created — it has created some confusion.

And I think as a result of that, very early on in the church, they adopted using another word — missionary — which comes from the word missio, to distinguish that.

And so, like, even in Scripture, almost exclusively — except in a few cases — the term apostle is generally used to refer to the…

Geoffrey:
Authoritative

Mark:
Yes — yeah. But there are also those who are referred to in the Scriptures as apostles of the church.
So the other ones were the apostles of Christ, and these are apostles of the church.

So, in a sense, you find that they started using that word missionary. So like Alexander Mackay — we refer to them as missionaries, even though it kind of, in a sense, means the same thing.

But to avoid — um — that confusion.

Geoffery:

I think that makes sense. And it would help, too — if we are going to make the distinction between those — it helps.

My thinking is, though, that — if you read over and over — Paul and the New Testament writers seem to present the church as being endowed with all the gifts, including the apostolic gift and the prophetic gift.

So, I would be quite reluctant to argue that, you know, that gift is not there anymore — or that the prophetic gift is not there anymore.
I would — I see the office as separately, you know, ceased — as foundational for the church.

But with that regard, therefore, that’s why I would say that the person who, you know, stands on the pulpit, for example, every Sunday and declares the oracles of God…

Mark:
Yeah, yeah. Is prophesying.

Geoffrey:
…is walking in the prophetic gifting — you know — and is doing prophecy.
Just like the one who takes the gospel to an unreached people group is doing — in a secondary sense — an apostolic, you know, work.

Mark:
Okay. But in the sense in which most people are using this term today…

Geoffrey:
Yeah.

Mark:
…which is — an example: everyone today who’s calling themselves an apostle — and not necessarily using it in the sense of being a missionary, but rather they are using it in the sense that Ephesians 2 and 4 use it.
That God gave apostles, and so, “He has chosen me to be an apostle.”

Geoffrey:

And that’s — that’s a bit of a problem.
Because when you look through the New Testament, there are particular requirements that specified who an apostle was.

Yes — who an apostle was. And I don’t think any of them today would claim to be eyewitnesses to the resurrected Lord.

In fact, one of the reasons why Paul has to constantly argue and defend his apostleship is because of that — exactly. Because they were querying — many of the people in the churches he had planted were querying his credentials, because he wasn’t one of the Twelve.
Because he wasn’t an eyewitness to the resurrected Lord.

And he actually argues that, “On the Damascus Road, I saw Him.”(see Acts 9) That is his basis for the argument.
You know, and he spent three years in the deserts of Arabia, you know, being taught — just like the others.

So I think, if you call yourself an apostle, you have to have those qualities — those requirements. And I am afraid that — yeah — they don’t.

Mark:
So bringing it back — you said the office and the… you spoke of the gift — the gifting.

Geoffrey:
Yes.

Mark:
You seem to have come — in a sense — into a bit of a corner.
Because if, to be an apostle I must have been an eyewitness of Christ, must have been a disciple of His, commissioned directly by Him — which is what happens with the Twelve — and as you’ve said, Paul gives — in Galatians 3, and I think 1 Corinthians, 2 Corinthians…he gives a defence of his apostleship.

Geoffrey:
Yes.

Mark:
What about the people today who are calling themselves apostles?

Geoffrey:
That’s what I’m arguing. If you call yourself an apostle, you are essentially saying that I occupy the office of the apostle — like the Twelve — and I don’t think that is right.

If you think of yourself, as you said, as a missionary — especially the missionary that takes the gospel — and you don’t even have to call yourself an apostle, you know — but laying the foundation of the gospel to an unreached people group, in a way, I would argue that that sort of person is walking in the apostolic gifting.

But when you tag yourself “Apostle Mbaziira Geoffrey,” then you’re communicating something that is completely different from what I’m saying.
And I think that is very, very dangerous — because the New Testament seems to indicate that we have only Twelve apostles with that authoritative — you know — with the authority that the Twelve had. And Paul himself, who was the apostle to the Gentiles.

So no — I would not say that there are apostles — you know, the person who claims to be an apostle today.

Mark:
Okay. Again, on this thing of apostles and prophets — did those roles cease?
Are the apostles and prophets — are they still active in the church today?

There are those who believe they’ve ceased. Did they cease?

Geoffrey:
No — um — the answer is yes and no.

Mark:
Uh-huh.

Geoffrey:
Roles — maybe, for me, is a bit of a challenge.
If you ask me whether the offices ceased, I would say yes — those two.

Again, because of how — why I’ve explained — there is an authoritativeness to the Old Testament prophet and the New Testament apostle.
And, you know, the requirements that they needed to have — especially the apostles.

But I find that, when Scripture — when Paul, on more than one occasion, talks about these gifts that have been given to the church — he includes the apostolic gift and the prophetic gift.

So I would say that the apostolic gift is still in practice today — personally. In how I’ve explained: that the gospel is still being reached out to a lot of places — through missionary work. Missionary work, especially to unreached people groups. In that way, the apostolic ministry is still ongoing today — or the apostolic gift.

People are still declaring the oracles of God, you know — and there are people within the church who are gifted — God has gifted — to declare His oracles to the rest of us.

And those, in that sense, are gifted with the prophetic gift.
That’s how I would say it continues. I would not say the gifts have ceased.

Mark:
But would you also, in a sense, distinguish that from — and I guess in the usage of that term apostle and missionary…?

Missionary, of course, meaning apostle of the church — yes — sent out by the church.

But today, you have someone who wakes up in the morning and says, “I am an apostle. I’m setting up a church.”

And in that sense, as in — so, from the understanding of that word missionary or apostle of the church — is: they are sent.

Geoffrey:
Yes — by a specific…

Mark:
By the church.

Geoffrey:
By the church — to, yeah — to go and plant a church, or to go and be a missionary in another place.

Mark:
Like how the people who came to Uganda were from the Church Missionary Society, the White Fathers, and all that.

So the ones who get up today and say, “I am an apostle, I am a prophet”

Geoffrey:

And even the very statement, “I am an apostle” — is a problem.

Because again, when you tag yourself apostle, you are claiming to be in the office — and that office has ceased. So I would have a problem with people who claim to be apostles today — or prophets today — because, again, you are claiming the authority of the prophet, which no one has.

Because we have the Bible now — as the authority for our doctrine and practice. Not your words — you know, not any person’s word.

Mark:

Someone might say, “The Bible does not explicitly say that they ceased.”

Geoffrey:
Again, I would not say that the gift ceased — that’s what I’m getting at. And I would agree with someone who says that the gifts have not ceased.

I would say that — based on especially, you know, Ephesians 2:20 — that those two offices were reserved for the founding of the church.

That once the foundations had been laid, those two offices were no longer in operation.
At least, when I read Paul’s letter to the Ephesians, I can deduce that from Ephesians 2:20.

But also, I think it’s telling that whenever Paul is giving instructions about choosing leaders in the church, he doesn’t mention apostles.

Mark:

He just mentions elders, bishops — presbyters —

Geoffrey:

And that’s telling. But also, it’s also telling that all the people that came after the apostles — the generation that came after the apostles — never ever called themselves apostles. You look through church history — none of them ever claimed to be an apostle. Not the ones that came after.

I mean, the usage of that term came much later — with the Roman Catholic Church, and the claim to the papacy — you know, the pope being the representative of Peter in that regard as the apostle.

And later, with the advent of charismatic Pentecostalism, people who claimed to be apostles and prophets today.

But it’s telling — within the history of the church, no one that came after the Twelve claimed to be apostles.

Mark:
Well, one of the things that was characteristic of the apostles back then — and, of course, the prophets — was the special revelation that they brought to the church.

Geoffrey:
Yeah.

Mark:
Of course, it’s understandable — because in the Old Testament there was no Scripture.
So they are the means by which we have Scripture.

In the New Testament, the apostles are the means by which we have the New Testament.

But then also, an example is: when Paul establishes a church in Corinth, or in Thessalonica, and he’s sent away in six months, the church — in a sense — has to have a way to live in this new way that God has ordained for them and brought to them.

Geoffrey:
Yeah.

Mark:
So, you have the prophets.

But there are people today, of course, who carry that on and say, “Well, if God wants to guide his people today about something tomorrow that is not there in Scripture…”

And that is a similar thing — that’s a lot of what we are hearing from many of these apostles and prophets today.
Many of them purport to bring “deep revelation,” or some new revelation in Scripture.
They always sound… deep.

What would you tell someone — especially many of them — we have so many people who are hooked to so many apostles and prophets?

Geoffrey:
I think, one — it’s to acknowledge that God has saved all of us and made us his children, because we have been adopted as his children, and the Spirit of God resides in each one of us.

For everyone that has believed, has been — you know — filled with the Spirit, or baptized with the Spirit…

What’s that term, you know? Yeah, yeah. So, we have been indwelt — I think that’s a better term — indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

None of us has — you know — the Spirit of God is not a measure. It’s not a fluid in a cup that you have more and I have less. The Spirit of God is a person, all right?

So I can’t have more Holy Spirit than you, and you can’t have more Holy Spirit than me — all right?

Each one of us has been indwelt by the Holy Spirit. We have the ability, by the grace of God, to know his purposes — to know his will — as we submit to him through the reading of his Word.

So if I want to know… What—what was your question? If I want to know…

Mark:

What’s going to happen tomorrow? Revelation? Something?

Geoffrey:

Well, first of all, I don’t know whether I need to know what is going to happen tomorrow.
Because, um, yeah — it’s not for me to know. It’s for me to live in light of what God has revealed for me today. That’s one. But if I want to know his will, the Bible is there. And God’s Spirit indwells me, just like he indwells you.

So I can comfortably go to God in prayer and ask him to guide me by his Spirit — and he will guide me in the decisions I need to make daily. That’s one.

Two, there’s a sense in which we all grow — and that’s how I can define being “filled with the Spirit,” you know? Because while the Spirit of God is indwelling you and I, there are levels to which we submit to him.

We submit at different levels, you know?

And so, Paul tells his readers to be filled with the Spirit — as if to say, continually be being filled with the Spirit. An ongoing process.

You know, communicating the idea of submitting every day, all the time, to the Holy Spirit. That is how we grow.

The more I submit myself to the Spirit, the more I commit myself to reading his Word,
and prayer, and all these spiritual disciplines — and grow — I become more sensitive to his leading.

And that’s where the difference comes between someone who is mature and someone who is not.

So, as the church, God has given the mature believers the responsibility to shepherd and guide the rest. So that, if I need to know something — maybe I don’t know it — I have the blessing of other believers who may be more mature in the knowledge of God than me, that I can ask.

But it’s not that I need someone special to go to God and mystically find out something and come to me.

That’s different from, you know, you — a mature believer — walking with me, who is growing, who is not as mature as you, as we get to know his Word daily, and submit to his will.

God has given people different roles. You know, the pastor and the teacher — in that regard — becomes the one who guides others in the knowledge of God’s will.

So I can know his will, through the reading of his Word, but also through, you know, checking, asking those who are maybe more mature than me in the knowledge of God, to guide me.

But that’s different from, you know, the person who says,
“I will go to God — or to heaven — and hear from God, and come back.”

Because that person then makes themselves special, you know? Different — very different — from the rest of us, who (apparently) have no access like that. And that’s the sense in which you find many of these “prophets” today acting. Yeah.

Mark:
So, lastly — if someone today, a listener out there, is listening to us and says,
“Okay… I follow Apostle So-and-so, Apostle So-and-so, Prophet So-and-so…”

What should be my takeaway from this?

Understanding, One: that the apostles and prophets referred to in Ephesians, and in Mark, and in the Gospels, refers to the Twelve. And they had a specific function that they performed.

They had revelatory gifts, in that they brought God’s Word to the people — much like the Old Testament prophets did.

And, as you said, when those passed away, the church actually stopped — in a sense — using that term, and adopted other terms. And no one used that term “apostle” again, until much later on.

So now, me — or someone out there — who’s going, “Yeah, I’m listening to this apostle from Nigeria… there’s an apostle here… there’s a prophet here…” So…

Geoffrey:
Yeah. I think one of the things—if you’re careful—you’ll notice that most of those people who call themselves apostles or prophets… if you critically listen, or look at what they teach and what they preach, they are lacking in the truthfulness of the gospel.

Yeah, so that’s one thing to look at and judge:
Is the gospel being preached? Or is this a celebration of a “man of God”—you know, a man of God, a special person who is being revered? And… you know… worshipped. Almost worshipped. We—we see that.

So that’s the first thing to take notice of: there is hardly any truthfulness of the gospel in many of those churches.

There’s no proper teaching—no expositional teaching—of God’s Word.
And where that is lacking, I would advise the person to flee and find a church that is committed to teaching God’s Word and to being pastored.

Mark:

And the other thing is:
Usually where you do find proper teaching—expository preaching of God’s Word—you will not find anyone calling themselves “apostle” or “prophet.”

Geoffrey:
No, no, no. You won’t. You will not find that.

Because there’s an acknowledgement that those offices were special. You know, they were—they were special.

So anyone who is faithful to Scripture and who is faithful to teaching Scripture will notice that, and so, finding a church that exposits God’s Word, that is faithful in teaching his Word… that’s what you want.

When you find people who claim to—
I mean, for me, when I hear someone called a prophet, my antennae go up.

Because there’s every likelihood that that is a false teacher. Yeah. I say that with all genuineness—my antennas go up.

There’s usually a very high likelihood that that is a false teacher or false prophet.

So: flee. I would say: Run.  And find a Bible-teaching church.

Mark:
Okay, this has been great. I’m sure there are a lot of questions that many of our viewers will raise about this.

Please feel free to write in the comment section any questions that you have, so that we can pick them up and address them whenever they come up.

I know this is a very hot-button topic, so make sure you send in your questions to our podcast. We’ll ensure we can get back to you.

Also, please do like, share, subscribe, and hit that notification button, so that you may get alerted when we have new episodes, and so you can share them with others too.

Thank you very much for joining us!
It’s been wonderful having you, Geoffrey.

Geoffrey:
Thank you!

Mark:
And we look forward to interacting with you—and the viewers—on many more occasions to come. God bless you.